Posts by City Fan

10

Did Daniel predict the Roman Empire?

by City Fan in

.

why can i never cut and paste from word without a quarter of the content going missing?.

aaarrgghhhh!.

City Fan

(Part 2)

The traditional Persian order of kingdoms was Assyria, Media, Persia and Greece. (see Herodotus I.95,130 and a Ktesias fragment in Diodorus Siculus 2.1-34). The sequence of Babylon, Media then Persia is also attested to in Jewish writings e.g. Tobit 14:4-7. Two writings from Roman times extend this sequence to five adding Greece then Rome. See Polybius (38.2), Dionysus (1.202.4), Tacitus (Hist 5.8-9) and Appian (Preface 9).

According to Daniel, the mysterious King 'Darius the Mede' rules in between the fall of Babylon and the rule of the Persians. Whether 'Darius the Mede' was a confusion with Darius I Hystaspes, or was a Median governor in Babylon called Gubaru, there is little doubt that the author of Daniel has the Medes second in the succession of powers between Babylon and Persia.

Other Jewish writings tend to confirm 'Darius the Mede' as Astyages, the last King of the Medes. Below there's a chart of the reigns of the Median and Persian kings between 625 BC and 466 BC.

Kings of Media: Kings of Persia:

Cyaxares (625-585BC) (Ahasuerus - Tobit 14:15)

614 Medes take Ashur

612 Medes and Babylonians take Nineveh.

Astyages (585-550BC) (Darius the Mede - Daniel 9:1 & Bel 1:1)

Cyrus II the Great (559-530BC)

Cambyses II (530-522BC)

Bardiya (522BC)

Darius I Hystaspes (522-486BC)

Xerxes I (486-466BC)

The book of Tobit 14:15 talks of the 'destruction of Nineveh, which Nebuchadnezzar and Ahasuerus had captured'. Daniel 9:1 calls Darius 'the son of Ahasuerus, by birth a Mede' and the apocryphal book Bel and the Dragon says: "When King Astyages was laid with his fathers, Cyrus the Persian received his kingdom.'

So according to Jewish tradition and the book of Daniel, Darius the Mede was Astyages, last King of the Medes, the son of Cyaxares who sacked Nineveh. Whether this view of history is correct or not is not important in trying to find the identity of these four kingdoms in Daniels prophecy. What is important is the history that Daniel and other Jewish writers thought was correct.

(cont...)

10

Did Daniel predict the Roman Empire?

by City Fan in

.

why can i never cut and paste from word without a quarter of the content going missing?.

aaarrgghhhh!.

City Fan

(Part 1)

Did the prophet Daniel predict the rise of the Roman Empire? And if he did, doesn't this show the book to be divinely inspired?

As JWs and ex-JWs we're used to seeing pictures of the image in Daniel chapter 2 with its head of gold, breast and arms of silver, belly and thighs of bronze, legs of iron and feet partly of iron and partly of clay. We're also familiar with the four beasts in Daniel chapter 7, the first a lion with eagles' wings, the second a bear, the third a leopard with four heads and four birds wings, and the fourth beast with its ten horns.

The explanation we were given is that these separate chapters represent the same four kingdoms of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and lastly Rome.Do an internet search on these chapters and you'll get hundreds of end-time religious sites with the same order of kingdoms and various speculations about the ten horns and the mixed iron and clay and what they might represent today. This tradition began in the time of the Romans with Josephus (ANT 10.10.4 ^209) who equated the third beast with Greece and the fourth beast with Rome.

So the question arises, if he did correctly predict the Roman Empire, doesn't this show that the prophet Daniel was divinely inspired?

History shows that the Assyrian Empire fell to the Medes under Cyaxares between 614 and 612 BC. Media then fell to Cyrus the Persian in 550 BC, eleven years before the fall of Babylon. So the next empire after Babylon was the Persian Empire which included the Medes. But to properly interpret the meaning of the four-kingdom prophecies we have to use Daniel's version of history, whether right or wrong, as well as look at the rest of the book and other Jewish writings for clues.

(continued..)

10

Did Daniel predict the Roman Empire?

by City Fan in

.

why can i never cut and paste from word without a quarter of the content going missing?.

aaarrgghhhh!.

City Fan

Why can I never cut and paste from Word without a quarter of the content going missing?

aaarrgghhhh!

22

to decide ones faith!

by zelevis in

i see post after post on what u members of this site call bad picture, how can u show the end of this world in a good way?

anyone answer me that?

as a jw i believe and its my choice to do so based on bible teachings.

City Fan

Welcome Nick,

i question everything

That's a great philosophy to have. Hope you find some answers here.

CF.

38

Egypt, back from the dead?

by peacefulpete in

the desolation of egypt .

jeremiah 43:8-13 .

then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.

City Fan

Pete, you're right.

When I say I think Darius I and Xerxes ruled over most of the 'whole' world I mean the biblical world. It's obvious that none of the ancient rulers of bible times ruled countries like India, China or Russia etc.

38

Egypt, back from the dead?

by peacefulpete in

the desolation of egypt .

jeremiah 43:8-13 .

then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.

City Fan

Skiz,

To me that verse at Daniel 2:39 is saying that the second kingdom would be 'inferior' to babylon and it would be the third kingdom which would rule over all the earth. Could you give me your reasons for saying that this second kingdom was Medo-Persia and the third was Greece?

Thanks.

CF.

38

Egypt, back from the dead?

by peacefulpete in

the desolation of egypt .

jeremiah 43:8-13 .

then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.

City Fan

Skiz,

I'm not sure I would credit Cyrus himself with the words at Ezra 1:2. In the bible he seems to be one of several great ancient rulers who attributes his successes to Yahweh without changing the national religion to reflect this belief. In the Cyrus cylinder it is the god Marduk who chooses Cyrus as the new king of Babylon, and Cyrus also praises his gods Bel and Nabu for the conquest.

Was he the King of the world? Well again, strictly speaking he wasn't, but his kingdom was larger than Nebuchadnezzar's. The Cyrus cylinder shows how all the lands previously ruled by Babylon were now ruled by Cyrus. So all the land between the upper and lower seas (the Mediterranean and the Persian Gulf) was added to his empire. But again this did not include Egypt. But his kingdom did include Lydia, Baktria, Media and Persia which never belonged to Nebuchadnezzar. But Cyrus died in 530 BC before Egypt was taken.

Cyrus' son Cambyses spent the first few years of his reign building up a navy to defeat Pharoah Amasis, using Ionian and Phoenician ships. Egypt fell in 525 BC and the Persian Empire grew even stronger under the two Kings Darius and Xerxes. An inscription found in Iran to Darius the Great King lists 23 lands all under his subjection. The Persian Empire was far greater and longer lasting than the Babylonian Empire.

Again, strictly speaking, did Darius and Xerxes rule the whole world? They both failed to fully conquer Greece and both had to deal with Ionian uprisings sponsored by the Athenians. If you're asking me if I think the Persian Empire ruled over the whole world then I'd say yes, well most of it anyway.

38

Egypt, back from the dead?

by peacefulpete in

the desolation of egypt .

jeremiah 43:8-13 .

then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.

City Fan

Hooberus,

I don't think you've ever given an answer in your own words to the original problem posed by this thread, that Jeremiah and Ezekial prophecied the utter desolation and destruction of Egypt for 40 years, and that this prophecy failed.

And I think asking the question about Adam misses the point I was making. I could argue about the word Adam meaning the name of the first human, or being the word for mankind in general. I could argue that the Genesis creation account is two separate creation myths. I could argue that the stories of Adam are based on the Mesopotamian Adapa or the Egyptian Geb or a mixture of both. But I wouldn't call these 'doctrines'. A doctrine would be, say, the idea of the trinity. I notice you had a thread recently called 'Troublesome trinity verses part 10'.

See what I mean?

38

Egypt, back from the dead?

by peacefulpete in

the desolation of egypt .

jeremiah 43:8-13 .

then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.

City Fan

Adam, No.

Was Jesus raised as a spirit? Is this just interpretation?

38

Egypt, back from the dead?

by peacefulpete in

the desolation of egypt .

jeremiah 43:8-13 .

then the word of yhwh came to jeremiah in tahpanhes, saying, "take large stones in your hands and hide them in the mortar in the brick which is at the entrance of pharaoh's palace in tahpanhes in the sight of some jewish men and say to them, 'thus says yhwh of hosts, the god of israel, "behold, i am going to send and get nebuchadnezzar the king of babel, my servant, and i am going to set his throne over these stones that i have hidden; and he will spread his canopy over them.

City Fan

You're right Hooberus, I think the site does rely on quantity rather than quality. But it can give some good starting points to further research. I think the apologetic site you listed suffers from the same in that by trying to answer all the points on the skeptic site it mostly replies with brief non-arguments.

In the end, the bible leaves one to choose between one man's interpretation and another's without giving difinitive answers.

Adam - that's why I feel there is no point arguing on doctrine, it's just one man's interpretation against another.